Simply ‘Ellen’s’ identity remains a puzzle, truth be told there is apparently zero-you to titled Ellen otherwise Helen, but maybe an enthusiastic ‘Eleanor’ on Joanna’s side (Eleanor away from Aquitaine, mommy out of Joanna’s father Queen John)

Hello, individuals. It’s it is fascinating; everything i won’t enjoys provided to gain access to this information twenty-5 years before once i is researching and creating Here Getting Dragons!

The main purpose of this exercising is to test, by the a peek at genealogist’s opinions on the subject and also by consulting particular recognized unique sources, to decide who had been mom from Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Was she Joanna, spouse out of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Born circa.1188, passed away. March 1237) or try she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch regarding Rhos, domme of Llywelyn, produced circa. 1168, passed away??

I will follow this that have a holiday study with the you’ll life regarding a ded Susanna, provided off to Queen Henry 111 while the good hostage in the 1228 along with her child custody becoming supplied to help you Sir Nicholas Verdun with his wife Clementia.

Brand new feedback of Genealogists that i has actually read are only you to, opinions, plus they differ significantly. No definite research is present anyway, but i have to declare that the vast majority of keep getting Gwladus as this new child of Joanna. This is also true of your genealogists of the descendants from the new De- Braose loved ones, however they ily becoming associated with both Welsh and English regal home!

The list following away from Llywelyn’s multiple genuine and you may illegitimate youngsters appears getting essentially recognized because of the all the genealogists that i have examined with the exception of variations over if or not number 9 most lived. This new schedules from beginning given just below are disputed because of the particular:

1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, produced circa.1199, died 1244
2. Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, born circa.1206, passed away 1251
3. Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1206? passed away circa 1253,
4. Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1208? passed away circa 1263,
5. Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince off Wales, born circa 1208 (1211?) (second thoughts about this date, look for after), passed away twenty-five March 1246,
6. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1209 passed away 1281.
7. Angharad ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1210, died 1257
8. Tegwared ap Llywelyn – born circa 1210, you can twin in order to Angharad?
9. ‘Helen’, or ‘Susanna’, created circa 1214? Died 1259?

There clearly was much dispute across the name of the parents away from these types of pupils. There is certainly general agreement the merely certain children of Llywelyn’s e Prince away from Wales and Ellen (Helen) who married (1) John the new Scot, young buck of earl out-of Chester and (2) Robert de- Quincy. Regardless if viewpoint are split up along side mothers away from Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and you can Susanna, all the genealogists I have analyzed slim to your its mother are Joanna.

This will be partially and their supposed dates of birth once the well as his or her marriages to various marcher lords exactly who, that supposes, would have looked for to align their homes to this of their neighbour, the fresh new Prince of Northern Wales with his wife, the fresh king of England’s daughter. It is believed such lords of your own March wouldn’t have had plenty notice or governmental desire inside marrying out-of the sons for the illegitimate daughters out-of a beneficial Welsh prince that have good Welsh woman.

As to the brands of these people, if because of the Joanna, Tangwystl otherwise anybody else, these people were every called shortly after members of Llywelyn’s family:

Ken, the audience is completely in your personal debt

Llywelyn’s mom is called ‘ed ‘Susanna’ out of Gwynedd. Their paternal granny try titled ‘Gwladus’. The mother and father away from kuumat Arabialainen-naiset their granny Susanna, was ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and you may ‘Angharad’ regarding Flint and you will one another its labels were given so you can Llywelyn’s youngsters. So it Susanna along with had a sibling called ‘Gwenllian’, a similar term as Llywelyn’s great-grandmother.